Grey Divorce Explained: Navigating Walk-Away Divorces with Family Law Lawyer, Julie Tyas
Episode Details
Transcript
In this conversation, Andrea and Julie Tyas discuss the rising trend of gray divorce, particularly among women over 50. They explore the challenges faced during this life transition, including finding the right legal representation, the complexities of dividing assets and debts, and the emotional support systems available. Julie shares insights on the legal aspects of divorce in Ontario, including spousal support and retirement plans, while also addressing the societal factors that contribute to the phenomenon of gray divorce.
The discussion highlights the importance of understanding one's rights and the resources available to navigate this challenging process. In this conversation, Julie Tyas, a family law lawyer, discusses various aspects of divorce, including jurisdictional challenges for international cases, the dynamics of gray divorce, timelines for divorce proceedings, the importance of therapy during and after divorce, and the obligations of spouses post-divorce. The discussion emphasizes the emotional complexities involved in divorce and the need for self-care and empowerment, particularly for women navigating this life transition.
Links and Resources
Makeup links from Andrea’s opener (no one has paid to be on this list):
Cicapair Tiger Grass Camo Drops spf 35 by Dr Jart+ anti-redness
Hoola matte bronzer by Benefit
Living Luminizer by RMS (highlighter)
Vanish Airbrush Concealer by Hourglass Cosmetics
Foundations
Charlotte Tilbury Hollywood Flawless Filter
Jones Road Beauty What The Foundation
MAC Cosmetics Dewy Strobe Skin Tint
Fixing and Prep Sprays
Charlotte Tilbury Airbrush Flawless Setting Spray
Lip liners
Lip Cheat by Charlotte Tilbury
Blush
Rosewood by FACEatelier is my blush of the moment
Orgasm by NARS cuz if you ain’t gettin’ - it apply it
Soft Pop Plumping Blush Veil MAKEUP By MARIO
*please note that some links are affiliate links and we may earn a wee pittance
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Andrea
Makeup does not know how old you are. Society may know your age, well maybe not you personally, but the rhetoric of makeup for over fifty hits us hard without truly landing well. I'm on social media daily. Unfortunately, it's part of my job. I feel like toxic comments have decreased but not entirely disappeared. She's actually aged well, Instagram comment for the actress who played Sloan in Ferris Bueller. She really looks better as a redhead Instagram comment on Nicole Kidman. It's comments like these that send subtle beauty dysmorphia to us all. For those unaware of my background at this point, I am a licensed hairstylist and makeup artist who has worked in fashion, beauty, and advertising internationally for over thirty five years now. As much as I feel you wear your makeup as you want to wear it, I do find that many women of all ages spend too much time doing all of the steps like foundation, concealer, contour, and so it ends up looking cakey and overdone, which is completely unnecessary. And if this is how you like it, soldier on my makeup warrior! But unless you're going on camera, you don't need to do all of these steps. And when you're putting on your makeup, make sure that you're doing it with either natural daylight like window light is perfect or turn your ring light down from a full blast as ring lights tend to overexpose you, blowing things out. You end up applying more for the light that you're standing in, but as soon as you go out into uncontrolled lighting situations you look a bit garish just like Mimi from The Drew Carey Show. Now I will highlight all of these products in the show notes with links, so don't worry about trying to channel shorthand that you learned in nineteen eighty two. One of my favorite products is by Doctor. Jart. It's an anti redness serum perfect for those of us who have autoimmune issues or rosacea. Not only is this brilliant for anti redness, but there is an active ingredient that helps for healing. Wear this alone or under your foundation. Now when it comes to foundation, regardless of age, often it's more about color correction or sheer tint to even out skin tone versus erasing everything on your face creating that 80s cliche of a blank canvas. We don't aim for that anymore. People have been obsessed with contour and highlight, and we can agree that the Kardashians and the influencer racket are the OTT culprits. The rule of a good highlight apply to bring something forward. For example, there are five highlight points. This is where the sun hits you first: bridge of nose, brow bone, tops of cheekbones, chin, and mid forehead. Rule of contour is to create structure and sculpt with shadow or to recede. For example, cheek hollows, double chin, heavy eyelids, and there's more. Now armed with a basic understanding of highlighting and contouring, look at your face in the mirror and anything that you want to bring forward put on a highlight. And anything you want to recede or shape, apply a contour. Contour can be achieved with a foundation a couple shades darker than your own foundation, or you can use a bronzer. Find a bronzer that does not go orange. Benefit has a great one, which again I will list in the show notes. And be mindful of your application. Not everyone is cookie cutter. So when you see an influencer telling you to do a letter c or a number three, this is a generalized tip that doesn't actually work for everybody. The major mishaps that I see with both contour and highlight are people highlighting the tip of their nose. It's not the sleigh you think it is, it's giving guiding a sleigh at Christmas because you're enhancing that bulbous part of your nose. Keep the highlight for your nose on the bridge. This will sharpen and lift your nose versus making the end of your nose a fat beacon of light. Contour mistakes are generally wrong placement and bad color choice. I see often brown or gray lines on the side of the nose. People think that's giving an illusion of a slimmer nose, but if it's ill blended and dark it's giving more just gave a rim job. The problem is most people these days are using a ring light because influencers are telling them to do that, and your makeup might look flawless and overblown light, but in daylight you look the opposite of flawless. One of my favorite techniques for daily wear is highlight only. Avoid applying contour because the highlight will automatically create a shape with your own shadows when you're enhancing the highlight points. If you really want to do some contouring, my professional suggestion would be to do it under your foundation if you're wearing foundation. Foundation will help to soften your contour. This actually is an old school original way that we used to do highlight, contour, and concealer. It was always applied under foundation. The development of products and textures have changed so much over the years with better pigments and encapsulated ingredients that buff to a flawless finish that you don't need multiple steps anymore. In fact, many good foundations create highs and lows that eliminate the need for separate highlight and contour for everyday wear. Honestly, it's hard for me to go deep with extra information because then this is going to end up being like a forty five minute opener to my podcast versus just a couple of minutes. So let's move on to foundations. My favorite foundations are by Charlotte Tilbury, Jonesboro Beauty, MAC Cosmetics, and Canadian brand Face Atelier. And again, just a reminder, find specifics in the show notes. I'll put in recommendations and links for you to click to purchase. With these formulas, you can layer your foundation as they are buildable, which means as you layer them they won't cause streaking. Generally for me, all of these textures have varying degrees of a lush radiant lit from within, which is my preferred base again honestly for all ages. This is actually why it kind of bugs me when you see these articles about, like, best makeup for over fifty. It's like, that. Like, honestly, as a makeup artist of over thirty five years and if you look at my work, I generally do the kind of the same thing for everybody. You kind of also bespoke it for the face. Anyway, let me get back to my let me get back to my notes. For my personal application, I apply my foundation either with my fingertips or with a flat head foundation brush. I just tap it on like a stippling motion. That's what gives you that airbrush quality. And a lot of these foundations also have silicone, which is non comedogenic. And as the silicone molecule is bigger than your pore, it will not clog your pores causing breakouts. And silicone is not a bad thing. And I'll get into this more when I get on the episode of Hair, which will be the the next podcast. I am often asked about my skin and why I don't look cakey with my makeup. And I do say, well, I'm a makeup artist, so also skin care is important. And so if you didn't catch it, listen to my previous opener on the previous episode because I talk about skin care. And I also never use powder on my skin. As we age, fine lines are unavoidable, but we are able to diffuse them with appearance by using a glowy foundation and setting sprays versus powder. And sure, I get some people that say but I have oily skin, I have to use powder. First, look at your skin care. Secondly, if you keep putting powder on your skin, and I've said this before, you're telling your sebaceous glands to create more oil because you're drying your skin out. So then you have this endless cycle: add more powder, get more oil, add more powder, get more oil. Then you end up accentuating those fine lines. There are setting sprays and pre makeup sprays made for keeping oil at bay. Now eyeshadow. My favorite is by Charlotte Tilbury eyes to mesmerize. These cream shadows set like a powder with a dreamy creaseless finish. They work well like an eye primer as well. I love putting powder on shadow on top of them. My favorite is oyster pearl. Honestly, I pretty much use that on everybody. I am very much you do you honey boo boo. I am done with those fucking articles about how to do your makeup when you're over a certain age. And, sure, there are all kinds of rules I can tell you as a makeup artist who has worked for thirty five years in the industry and someone who is also fifty four years old. You know, for example, they say once you get to a certain age not to wear any glitter or no silver. And there is a reason for that. Any white or silver or glittery metallic will create a harsh contrast with any kind of line or wrinkles. So it does enhance them by contrast, and that's just basic color theory and texture of skin and how it goes together. But that doesn't mean you can't do it. I've seen some women of a certain age that have worn glitter, even on the red carpet, and it rocks. So should I think that you should not wear glitter? I love glitter. On women over forty five it's like stunning. I unfortunately can't as I wore it out one night and it triggered a migraine because all the light was bouncing off that glitter causing a strobe effect to my eyes. So do it. I love it. Unless you get migraines maybe avoid it. Our natural lip line does fade as we age, but I do feel that's mother nature telling us to soften our look a little bit. I personally feel that I look older when I line my lips, so I don't line my lips. If lip liner is for you, then I would go ahead and find a shade that's kind of close to your own lip color and then kind of smudge it out a little bit with a q tip. That just avoids any harsh lines. Now if you're wearing a dramatic lip because lip liner is having a moment right now, I would do you know if you're wearing like a red lip or a deep plum or a black cherry then I would definitely do that lip liner just to kind of go with your dramatic look. Blush I'm dropping at the end. As for me, I actually finish my look with blush and then concealer if needed. Because of my autoimmune disorder, some days my redness doesn't need help from the blush department and we don't need to wear twelve layers of makeup makeup just because brands and influencers tell us to. That, my friends, is advertising. I hope this helps. I honestly could go on more about makeup, but this is already sounding like a TED talk. I'm just trying to arm you with what I do and some takeaways. Anyway, I hope this helped. Now on with the show. If post episode you're inspired to date or start an OnlyFans, this also might help you. Welcome to the Fuck You Fifties. The podcast for women who refuse to tolerate the bullshit anymore. This is real talk, real stories, and a long overdue reality check. I'm your host, Andrea Clare, and this podcast is the filter free voice you've been waiting for with a dose of f bombs, the fuck you fifties, Unfiltered, unapologetic, and undeniably needed. My guest today is Julie Tayas, who is the principal lawyer and founder of Tayas Family Law Professional Corporation. She has practiced family law exclusively since she was called to the bar in two thousand and seven. Julie has experienced in all aspects of family law from straightforward matters to complex separations and divorce involving property division, high conflict parenting issues, child and spouse of support, and domestic contracts, including both cohabitation agreements and marriage contracts. Julie's objective is straightforward, guiding clients toward a much happier place in their lives calmly and clearly and as painlessly and cost effectively as possible. Women over fifty are saying enough and tapping out. Why is that? I invited Julie to speak on the growing topic of the gray divorce, also known as the walkaway divorce. Julie, welcome to the fuck you fifties. Julie, I'm so excited to, to have you on the fuck you fifties. It's it's really it's really funny. So I was doing a shoot, just recently, and and a lot of the women that were at the shoot were, you know, of a certain age, like, a lot of them over over fifty. So I was talking to this one woman, and I was just saying to her, like, oh, like, you might really like this podcast that I'm doing. And so I was explaining to her the fuck you fifties, and I was going through some of the guests that I've had. And I said and I actually am having a, a family law lawyer, and we're gonna be discussing, like, gray divorce. And she was like, oh, I'm so gonna be listening to that one. I totally gonna fucking divorce my husband. He doesn't even know. Julie
You know what? It's so weird. It like, during COVID, obviously, as you can expect, there was a huge wave of of separations and divorces. But I don't know what it is since, like, January, maybe, like, November. There's it seemed to, like, be the beginning of this second sort of wave. But since the new year, we have just been slammed. It is crazy. Andrea
It it's, you know, it's fascinating. Like, I, as I was trying to, like, research topics so I could cover for my podcast, and I'm, like, literally googling, like, just, like, different things for women in, you know, in their fifties and whatever. And and this this whole, like, gray divorce, walk away divorce, like, terminology is a hundred percent new to me. I've never heard of it before. Like, do you know? Like, can you clock it? Like, when did that kind of terminology come about? Is it fairly new? Or Julie
I think it's relatively new. You know, people like to put labels and cute little sort of, you know, coins on things. But, like, I remember when I first started practicing, which would have been two thousand and seven. Yeah. Two thousand seven, dating myself. At that point, I mean, there were still there were still these gray divorces happening then. I mean, one of my most memorable clients was somebody in my first year of practice who, you know, was separating from her husband of almost thirty years. So, you know, it it definitely was happening. I, you know, I'm not quite sure if there's more of it happening or people just talking about it now because it does have a label. But, you know, we, you know, we feel at our firm anyways that we are getting a lot of clients who are in this sort of cohort. And, I mean, I I sometimes I think that the clients that I'm sort of attracting are perhaps people, you know, my age since I'm aging with them. You know? I'm not you know, definitely in my thirties, I was probably attracting more clients who were, you know, young and had toddlers, you know, like I did. Right? So Right. It definitely there it seems to be, you know, quite a popular, choice, but I don't think it's it's new, and I don't think that, it's happening more often. I think people are just talking about it more. Andrea
Right. That makes sense. And then I I wonder I wonder too if, like, do you think it's like a Gen x thing, or do you think that it's also has been something that that has been around even, like, you know, the previous generation? Julie
Yeah. I mean, growing up I mean, I was born in nineteen eighty. So, I mean, growing up, there most of my friends' parents were still together whether they were happily together or not. Who knows? I I don't I think, definitely, it's more common nowadays for, you know, people who are younger than our parents to actually go forward with something like this, because it is obviously life changing. Andrea
Yeah. Absolutely. Now I guess, we should also kind of, like, touch base on the fact that we were talking to Julie in Ontario, Canada. I have a lot of, like, listeners as well that that are outside the province, outside the country. And so a a lot of this will pertain to, I I would assume. Right? Like, I'm not a lawyer, but Ontario law. Is that correct? Julie
That's right. Andrea
And then so some of these, maybe maybe some of your comments could be taken to wherever you're, you know, you're living to a lawyer, but then you'd have to kind of gauge it to the law of what you're where you're residing. Right? Julie
Right. Yeah. There's definitely jurisdictional, limitations in terms of what I can sort of provide advice wise on this, podcast. And, I mean, I think that, you know, culturally, even across Canada, there's differences in not only how not only in terms of what the laws are, but in terms of, you know, how people are approaching this specific topic and, gray divorces in general. Andrea
Right. And I guess, like, some of the questions so I I I feel like because this is very, like, specific. Right? So I I have my sheets of of, questions that I printed off. Perfect. And so I think that too, like, some of these questions I feel would kind of pertain to anybody anywhere where they're living, and so they just have to take it to get, like, the information from their, jurisdiction. Right? So I guess, like, the numb the number one thing would be, I would say, like, anybody that is considering, their great divorce, like, how do you go about finding a lawyer? Julie
Ninety nine percent of my referral base comes from usually former clients. It's usually people who've, you know, had a I don't wanna say an enjoyable experience, but a tolerable experience, and they feel that it went as well as it could have gone, and then they refer their their friends, their neighbors, their colleagues to me. Andrea
Are there different challenges for people when they get to be in the age of a gray divorce? Julie
Yeah. I mean, that's a really good question. I I think that the the main challenges that anyone or any couple would face going through a process like this still exist. There are definitely some distinct issues that come up in gray divorces that probably don't are are not even contemplated in, you know, a thirty, forty year old, sort of separation process. And one of them is the issue of retirement. And that's a it's a very complicated issue in one sense, particularly as it pertains to support. You know, in a long term marriage, there's a long term and if it was a fairly traditional relationship where one person worked, maybe they were the the sole breadwinner and the other person didn't work or didn't work very much, there's there's going to be a a long term support obligation. And the problem that we face in these great divorces is that sometimes retirement, you know, is on the horizon. If people are sort of mid fifties and thinking they were gonna retire at sixty, that may not be a plan that can be executed anymore. Also, you know, if you are in your, you know, sixties and your, you know, retirement really is sort of around the corner, there's there's definitely some challenges in terms of how to ensure that the recipient spouse is going to be able to be taken care of financially, even though they have an indefinite, support, entitlement, that indefinite period doesn't necessarily mean for the rest of their life because there will be changes that are coming such as retirement where, you know, the payer's income may go down significantly. Andrea
Right. Julie
That's the biggest challenge, I would say. Andrea
Being a hairstylist. Right? Like, I I talk to a lot of a lot of women, of course, and and they confide in me. And some women just feel trapped because they don't have any of their own money. But they're in situations where they want to leave, but then they can't. And then, like, how would that work? Can somebody qualify for legal aid at that point if they need to get out of a toxic relationship? Julie
It's a really good question. So the threshold for legal aid, at least in Ontario, is extremely high to qualify. You you almost have to be on the poverty line to to to receive, funding for that. So, usually, that's not an option. And and especially in a in a gray divorce, most of of the people who are separating at that stage of life do have some assets or some savings. You know, they've accumulated some wealth over the years. So usually, legal aid is not an option. But it is very common where, you know, I have, you know, a client come in and they they know nothing about the finances. So, you know, I had a client recently, didn't know how to do an e transfer. You know, had really all of those things had been taken care of before, so she was extremely afraid and obviously very brave to have even reached out to somebody initially. But she was very concerned about how to be able to support herself. And and the thing that I tell people is just go and and get it have a consultation with a family law lawyer, somebody who will be able to tell you, you know, what your rights are, what obligations you have, if any, and, you know, proceed with the process if you wish to do so knowing that the laws are in place in, I would say, most jurisdictions to protect this type of a situation. Andrea
Well, that that's good that there's, like so someone doesn't have to be, like, trapped for the rest of their life. Right? Julie
No. No. Exactly. And, I mean, you know, there's lots of, things that can be done. Advances can be requested. For example, an interim support arrangement can be negotiated usually fairly quickly, to allow, you know, one person to be able to move out, put down first and last month's rent potentially, or, you know, be able to pay a legal retainer, that type of thing. Andrea
Yeah. Yeah. I wonder too if there's, I mean, I would I would assume there might be, like, some women's organizations as well. So not even just, like, the legal side, but but maybe for for, like, you know, group support or or just, like, organizations that can offer that kind of, I guess, coaching or counseling, through that process as well? Julie
Yeah. I mean, I think I suspect there's probably lots of Facebook groups where you can get support from that. The Barbara Barbara Schliffer Clinic is a pretty well known clinic in Toronto. Mostly sort of caters to women who are in a domestic violence situation, but, you know, they can they also have resources. We also work with coaches, and this is becoming, I would say, more common. I I currently have two files where there's a a divorce coach on the file, and the divorce coach is neither a lawyer nor a therapist, but they sort of, assist with the legal process. You know, here's an example. If, you know, we received a letter from the our client's spouse's lawyer, and it was sent to our client, but I didn't have time to immediately speak with that client that day, they can call their coach. And that coach can sort of, you know, talk them off the ledge potentially depending on the nature of the letter. You know, they may help them sort of, come up with really concise questions from based on that letter to ask me so that their calls with me are, you know, minimal, and they're not spending excess in legal fees. Andrea
That's great, actually. So a little bit of a buffer and Julie
It's a buffer. Yeah. Andrea
And help focus those questions. I think that's great. If it's somebody like me that just rambles on forever Yeah. Julie
You schedule a half hour call, and it's an hour and a half. It happens. Yeah. Andrea
Yeah. That would be me. So, thankfully, I'm not getting bored. Julie
Yeah. Exactly. Andrea
And then and then what about, like, assets and and debts? Like, how how do those get divided up? Julie
Yeah. So in Ontario, the laws are very different for common law couples as opposed to married couples. And so when we're talking about a married couple, where this concept of equalization kicks in, it's really this idea that everything that's been accumulated between the parties, so whether it's in, you know, one person's name or the other, the growth of those, those assets get shared. And obviously debts, you know, most people over time, their net worth goes up. Occasionally, it does go down, but that growth is is shared. The the losses are also shared. It's determined to be a legal partnership. So sort of a a common example that I give people, in a very high level, explanation of how this works is, you know, look at a traditional couple. So what did the wife have on the date of marriage? Okay. Let's say she had a car that was worth a thousand dollars, and on the date of separation, she now has some assets. She owns half an interest in a property. She's got some savings, and let's say on the date of separation, she's now worth two thousand dollars. Okay? We run the exact same calculation for the other party, and hopefully, they have a lawyer to assist with this. But let's say he came in with nothing, and over the course of the relationship, he's accumulated three thousand dollars. So if his growth is zero to three thousand, that's called his net family property. He has to share that three thousand dollars. And similarly, if hers went from one thousand to two thousand, that one thousand dollar growth gets shared with him. So in this case, they've accumulated four thousand dollars together. They each get two thousand of that growth. So he would have to write her a check for a thousand, so they each walk away with two thousand. Andrea
Got it. It. And this is really math that I could follow because my math is not great. So thanks for that. I Julie
know. It's yeah. I have to try to think about, a way to sort of tailor to all people. Right? Yeah. Andrea
Yeah. Yeah. It's like if Mary takes a train, I'm like, I don't know. Don't ask me those questions. I can't figure that out. Julie
I know. I know. Andrea
And so what about retirement plans? So how how do the retirement plans like, are they are they accessible for being divided? Or Julie
Do you mean, like, pensions, RRSPs, that different thing? Yeah. So a pension is an asset. It it has to be valued. We have specific pension legislation in this province that deals with that. The, an RRSP is also an asset. So any asset is included in this calculation unless they had, you know, some kind of a marriage contract that they entered into at some point where certain assets were going to be excluded. But, you know, when people think of assets, usually they think of a home. And that is obviously, usually people's largest asset. But a pension plan, you know, an RRSP, a lira, a business, all of these things have values. Right. So they all have to be properly valued as of the date of separation in order to determine what this equalization payment is going to be. Andrea
Is it maybe a good idea to consider, like, if your marriage is going really well and you have no issues at all to kind of do and if you haven't done a prenup to do, like, a post numptial? Like like, would that make sense? Or Julie
They're all called marriage contracts, but the idea, behind it is that you wanna protect your assets in the event of, you know I mean, a marriage contract does cover separation by way of death. So it usually has to align with what the will says or what the what the wills say. It also deals with, obviously, a separation where one person's choosing to leave the relationship. Right? So, people do these all the time. I would say they're extremely common in situations where you have, you know, someone in their fifties plus who are repartnering. And they've, you know, they've found somebody else or maybe they're widowed or whatever the case may be. They they wanna enter into this type of a contract to protect their wealth, usually for the sake of their children that they may have had in from a previous relationship. So it's very common. Andrea
How how does, like, with with, alimony and and, and, like, like, like, spousal payments, how how, how is that governed nowadays? Like, I know when I was a kid and my parents were divorced, my father was able to kind of, like I don't know if I should say this or not, but he was able to kind of, like, hide he got a lot of cash jobs, so he he kinda skipped through, like, you know, paying for child support. So I guess, like, in alimony. How is is there a way that it's better now that it's governed, or are people still able to kind of escape the system? Julie
Yeah. Sort of evade their obligations. I mean, it still happens. It it does still happen. You know, obviously, I think the CRA has cracked down on this type of thing over the years, but there's lots of people who earn cash. You know? Contractors are sort of the the number one. Right? And so in those cases, it is tricky to sort of track it. Sometimes we have to do, you know, a lifestyle analysis and involve a charter business evaluator to to help figure out, okay. Well, on paper, this person's earning ten dollars a year, but, you know, he just bought a Porsche. So where's the money coming from for that? So we do we can do a lifestyle analysis and try to figure out, where the money is coming from and what is likely the person's income for support purposes. Because what is being reported to the CRA in a self employment situation is almost never what a party's income is for support purposes and for that calculation. Andrea
So frustrating too when people are able to kind of do that. Julie
It is frustrating. It's very frustrating. Andrea
Oh, unethical as well. Like, it's kind of like, why would you want to hurt someone that you, at one point, I would assume had loved and cared for, but now you just want to stick it to them. It's unfortunate. So I guess this is another one that a lot of people probably want to kind of know about is, the legal fees and, like, the, like, payment structures. How does that typically work? Like, you would take a retainer. Julie
Right? Yeah. So I I I think most firms take retainers. At our firm, the retainer will vary a little bit. If we're going into court right away, our retainer is higher, obviously. If we're starting out with, you know, hopefully, a more collaborative type negotiation, then the retainer can be lower. But, yeah, we we charge a retainer. Here, we draw down the retainer, and once it gets low, we just ask the client to top it up. But their bills, you know, would be, you know, invoiced monthly, and they would have an itemized accounting of what time was spent on their file. And there's, you know, adjustments that are made at the end of the month when we prepare these accounts, and then they get paid out of the retainer. Andrea
Right. Yeah. And then what do you do you find like, I don't and I don't know if this is something that you can gauge or not, but do you feel like it's like it's like women, that are more of the catalyst of the great divorce? Are they is it more like women that are initiating it, do you think? Or Julie
I think it is. You know, when women initiate and this is a generalization, so it's not in all cases. But, you know, often when women initiate a separation, regardless of their age, but I think definitely as they get older, they've spent months, if not years, sort of getting to that place of decision making. And they're ready to move on emotionally. They've already done their, you know, their grieving, their sort of, you know, like, should I should I not, all of those thought processes that happen. They've already done that. And so when they make the decision, it's very, it's often very difficult to go back, you know. And I hear this all the time where once somebody typically a woman says, you know, it's it's over. Like, I I don't wanna be in this relationship anymore. Only at that point is the husband willing to go to counseling or, you know, says I'm willing to do the work to make things better. But at that point, it's really hard to sort of check back in. I think if you've gotten to that place where you've you've put it behind you emotionally at least. So I think that when women get to the stage of making this decision, it is very final. When men do it, it's often more spontaneous is what I feel in my experience. Andrea
Oh, okay. That's interesting. Is there any kind of, like, thing that initiates that that spontaneity? Julie
I mean, I think that there must be some sort of frustration. I I also think that depending on the roles that each party took on during the marriage, if it was more traditional, and you have a husband who is sort of facing retirement age, there might be some sort of Andrea
Twenty five year old girlfriend? Julie
Well, I was gonna say that that is pretty that I I feel it that has to be behind a lot of it. Yeah. I do. Andrea
Yeah. Yeah. I think get their convertible sports car and they're, like, paying girlfriends. Julie
Or they've been caught or you know what I mean? That happens often. Yeah. Yeah. And so maybe it's it's spontaneous because it's wasn't really planned. You know? Andrea
Right. Julie
By him, anyways. He was hoping to not get caught. I don't know. I can't paint everyone with the same brush, but sometimes this happens. But But it happens sometimes. Andrea
Stereotypes are there for a reason. Right? Yeah. Unfortunately. You know, I I'm I'm come from, like, a, like, a I was a child of, like, a divorced family. You know? So, like, so I feel like I'm kind of putting it on a negative spin. I guess it's not always negative, though, too. Right? Like, people can go through, like, a great divorce, and it could be completely amicable, and they have no issues. So I guess maybe maybe to take a positive Yeah. Julie
Positive positive. And I say that's positive. Andrea
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Then we can we can talk a little bit about that. Like like, from your experience, as a lawyer, what are some of the, I I guess, good experiences that you've seen? Like, how if somebody wanted to go through a great divorce, you know, I guess, on the best case scenario, like, how fast can that be done for somebody? Julie
Well, the good thing about, you know, great divorces generally is that there's there's no longer dependent kids. Right? So they're either in university or they're, you know, beyond that, they're living their own lives. So that takes a lot of the, a lot of the work away in terms of the issues that need to be resolved. Right? So, and and often those are the ones that are the more emotional issues, right, and sort of leave that long lasting impact, you know, in terms of co parenting going forward. But if those issues are not in existence, there's really just financial issues in most cases to be resolved. Right? Sometimes you do have, you know, a child who, is still considered a dependent child, even though they're an adult, you know, due to a disability or whatnot, and those cases are a little bit different. But, the the overwhelming majority of grey divorce is there are no kids. So when you're talking about just financial issues, sometimes that just because we're not talking about kids, it does sort of take some of the heat away, and some of the conflict. Not always, though. Sorry to bring it back to the negative. Andrea
Sorry. Julie
I mean, not always. Sometimes people are very motivated by money. Right? And that's really, really important to them. And so they get really angry when they're when they're talking about that. But, if people can just keep it in perspective, you know, it's it's it's just money. Andrea
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's true. It's just money. You know, and and I I find too, like, sometimes people, they get this in their head where they just they wanna win. Right? But it's like, if you're fighting so much to win, then everybody ends up losing. Like, I, you know, I I was married once before, and so I did go through, through a divorce before myself. And, I mean, that was just I mean, neither of us had money at that point. But, I think I feel like in my friend group, I was probably one of the first to get divorced. And then you kind of kind of look back at things that you wish that you would have done differently, you know. And so when when I had friends of mine that were going through divorces and confiding me in me with things, and I would just say, like, like, why are you fighting about that? You want the fucking television? Take it. Julie
Yeah. I feel I feel like people again, I think it comes down to there's usually one person who's more emotionally ahead in the process than the other, and the other person is sort of often grasping at things, right? Like things that, you know, if they were to take a bird's eye view of what's happening, does the table really matter? It probably doesn't mean anything, but they're so entrenched in maybe anger, maybe sadness, and they have a really hard time sort of dissociating and also moving forward. You know, people have been, married for a long time and have accumulated stuff that they associate different memories with. So, you know, it can become sort of the most contentious issue when there's no kids. Andrea
Right. Yeah. I mean, to make light of it funny, my mom when my mom, divorced my father, she called it the great Canadian junk trade off. And and she showed me, like, there is, like, the list of, like, that he had wanted. And, I mean, this was in this, I guess, the seventies. Right? But it was, like, garden hose, one dollar. Like, it was like, it's so fucked up. Right? Julie
It's like Yeah. Andrea
Like, that was the one thing that sticks out of my head, but there was a lot of things that were kind of listed out like that. And then, like, they're like, the itemized, like, what it what what, I guess, he felt it was worth. And it was just like, are you are you Julie
Well, people always also think that, like, it's the replacement value. You know? But it's like, no. It's it's what you're gonna sell on your your at your yard sale. That's the value of it. It's like Andrea
nothing. Yeah. Julie
Yeah. Yeah. Andrea
Yeah. And I just think too that it's like, you know, from my mother's advice of, you know, when I got divorced from from my first marriage, it was, just, like, walk away from everything. Like, I just kinda think, like, like, unfortunately I mean, I I think that I mean, you're hoping to be dealing with reasonable people, which is obviously not always the case. Right? But, like, if somebody Yeah. If somebody in your family, left you, like, some sort of heirloom painting or something, you would think that your spouse would let you take that heirloom painting. Like, why would you fight over? But it is kinda silly when people get into fighting over stuff like that. It's just, like, they just become unreasonable. And then I think, like, when you think they Yeah. Then that's just somebody just wants to win. They could it's like, I have the most toys. I'm leaving this room with the most toys, so, therefore, I'm the winner, you know, where you're like Julie
Yeah. I mean, it can be really juvenile at times. You know? Yeah. Andrea
Yeah. It must it must be hard too for you, like, as a lawyer when when, when you see kind of things like that because I'm sure there's, you know, maybe the odd occasion where you have, like, your inside voice where you're just like, I can't believe this is happening right now. Julie
For sure. Yeah. Definitely. Andrea
Yeah. Julie
That's why I have colleagues, so we'll talk about everything after. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Andrea
Oh, gosh. So, yeah. This is great. Like, I feel like there's so much, like, fantastic information here. So I guess, I don't know. Do we do we talk about, like, tip like, is there a typical time? Like, how long it takes to like, from start to finish? Julie
That's a good question. Yeah. How long it takes. So, I mean, obviously, the number one driving factor in how long it takes to resolve all of this is whether both people are cooperative or not. Right? If you have one person who's not cooperative, it's going to drag on longer because you're gonna be, you know, chasing them for financial documents. You know, you're gonna be, you know, negotiating maybe a little bit differently or maybe not negotiating at all and may have to get it into court if there's just a refusal to Yeah. Andrea
Because men are unreasonable. Julie
Yeah. It it really depends on the personalities. Right? It also depends on the personality of the other lawyer. I mean, if I have a really good working relationship with somebody, we kind of you know, the other lawyer and I would know at the beginning, you know, this is likely gonna be a case where we can resolve it. We don't need a, you know, a third party to be involved in making decisions. Not always is that the case, though. And and, also, the complexity comes from whether somebody has a business or whether they're self employed. So in those situations, we do have to often get a charter business evaluator to, you know, value a business, and that takes longer. So I would say on average, if it's a, you know, low to sort of mid conflict file, it's going to be, you know, six to twelve months. Low end would be six, you know. I mean, that's not to say that we haven't settled things sooner than that. But again, it really comes down to how complicated are the issues and how motivated are everybody to resolve the problems, right, and the issues. So if you're talking about a situation where there is more financial complexity or you're looking at, you know, twelve to eighteen months, if you're in court, you can add, you know, a year to to each to any of those estimates at least. There our court systems are in Ontario, at least in the GTA courts and sort of surrounding areas are all very backed up. Andrea
Yeah. Unfortunately. Right? Julie
Yeah. And one thing I I do recommend too is getting a good therapist. You know? We talked about the divorce coach, but definitely getting a good therapist. And there's a there's somebody that I, you know, work with regularly. I refer work to her, and she sort of specializes in, you know, helping women navigate sort of the second half of their lives, the second phase of their lives. You know? And and I find her to be really, really good at, you know, helping this with the specific issues, you know, like, either late teenagers, young adults, you know, helping them through this. Because even though they're not young, they're they're still impacted by this, you know, and and other issues that are they're they're facing. Andrea
I I I think that's a a really great suggestion because a lot of us, you know, well, you know, we have our friends that we can chat with. But, you know, once you get a few of those Aperol spritz down, you know, the advice is just like Julie
And then at some point, your friends are like, I don't wanna have that Aperol spritz before anymore. Andrea
You need an unbiased. You know? It's Julie
Yeah. Exactly. Andrea
Yeah. And then, what about, like, post divorce, if any modifications need to be made to any of the agreements? Is that hard, or is, like, once it's done, it's done? Julie
That's a that's a a very good question. Andrea
Do I get a gold star with all my questions today? Julie
You are gonna get totally a gold star too. Thank you. So I I think the property issues are usually resolved on a final basis. Support, again, is an issue that can be reviewable. So, you know, sometimes people will lock into a deal where they're going to receive a certain amount per month and it's gonna end at a certain point. Usually, in cases where there's a long standing obligation, unless the unless the the duration, which is shorter because we're anticipating retirement at a certain point, sometimes in those cases, the, the the amounts are front end loaded, meaning we know it's gonna be for a shorter period of time. So we're you know, one party is gonna pay more per month, right, to sort of offset that. But that's not usually the norm. Most of the time, we have a review that's built in based on some kind of material change happening, the number one being retirement. Andrea
Right. Julie
So, usually, there is a period of time where everything's sort of set. You know, everyone knows what's happening in terms of payments and whatnot, but then there is sort of this looming review, which, you know, nobody loves, but it's usually the fairest approach to see what everyone's doing at that time. You know, maybe somebody has returned to work even part time. Maybe somebody is no longer going to be retiring when they retiring when they thought they were. Maybe they became a partner or or something, you know, during that time, and there's gonna be equity that's paid out at a certain point. So it is the fairest way to sort of deal with any ongoing spousal support, entitlement or obligation post retirement. Andrea
What happens because because is it usually encouraged that somebody tries to find like, let's let's say it's it's somebody that has been a stay at home spouse, and they've kind of never really worked or their career is kind of like you know, it just it you can no longer recover that career because, you know, whatever they're out of practice or, you know, on their education, you know, whatever that is. Julie
Yep. Andrea
And, like, isn't it something that usually it's like you're encouraging that spouse to try and find work? Is that is or is am I wrong to say that? Julie
Yeah. So I think I know what you're talking about, and I I think what you're talking about is the obligation of the, you know, recipient spouse to, you know, try to make best efforts to support themselves. Right? And there is, you know, a piece of legislation that deals with this. You know, there is an obligation for people to try, you know, to try to work, to try to either go back to school and and, you know, improve on their skills or brush up on their previous skills. The reality is is that if you're starting this when you're sixty, that's going to be difficult. Right? And it you know, there's no there's no obligation, just to be clear, that the recipient has to be at the same level as the payor within a certain period of time. That's not at all what is being, you know, suggested. But there is, you know, an obligation to, you know, use whatever assets they have also to generate income. You know, maybe they have the ability to rent out their basement or Andrea
Start an OnlyFans account. I was just kidding. Julie
Exactly. Whatever you need to do, you know. So, yeah, I mean, there is an obligation to sort of try. And if you sort of meet that and you fulfill your obligation, that will be considered at the time of a review as well. Okay. Andrea
I mean, I guess it's hard too. Like, if you're in retirement age and you're having your gray divorce and you can't work. Julie
Yeah. And, I mean, there there also could be a disability or, you know, some other reason why somebody can't work, and and that does become more complicated because they they have to prove that they can't work. Right? So they're we're talking medical records and all of that that have to be disclosed. So can get pretty messy. Andrea
Yeah. I guess maybe you would also just you know, at this point with all this information, you go, okay. Let's wait. Do I wanna stay, or should I stay, or should I go now? Julie
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I do keep in touch with with many clients who, you know, have gone through it at any stage, and I don't think I've ever had one who've said, you know, I really regret leaving. You know? I I really regret that. I mean, if you were the one who, you know, it was the other party, your spouse who's decided to end it, sometimes there's a longer grieving period that takes place. Andrea
Yeah. Julie
And maybe they do sort of long for the way things were. But the people who initiate it, they don't really again, it's because they've they've gone through so much thought processes and and, you know, how do therapists help them sort of get to the point where they've made that decision? It's I don't think they regret that, you know, and they don't wanna go backwards. Andrea
Well, I think it's too it's it's like like, I feel like when you get to be like, I'm fifty four now, and, and you kinda get to a point with a lot of things in your life where where you kind of, like, life is too short, really. And it's never kind of too late to whatever it is, whether it it's like, you know, like learning something new or moving on to another relationship or just, like, taking time for yourself. And I think that's one thing that, and I I I mean, obviously, it's your expertise and, you know but you you see people that, you know, they just kinda think, I know. This is what I need to do for myself. Julie
And I think, you know, for years, if we're talking about women primarily being, you know, the nurture and, you know, putting everybody else first, You know, it does, I think, for many people come to a point where maybe maybe women thought of this before, but thought, oh, I I couldn't. You know? I have to stay in this sort of box, you know, that has been created for me to continue to care for everybody else and myself. And I think, you know, people are like, why why am I doing this? I have one life. You know? Andrea
Yeah. And I feel like just what you just said there about women being, like, nurturers. Like like, I I feel like that's something that I had read too when I was doing the research about great great divorce and the walk away divorce that it was, like, part of it was also explained was just exactly what you just said. It's like you spend all this time being a nurturer. Now suddenly your kids are no longer there, and you're not working, and it's like, well, now it's time for me to take care of myself. Now I'm gonna nurture and focus on myself. Julie
I think that's also why it takes so long for people to figure this out. Right? Like, do I really wanna go through it or not? I think, you know, it I think often it takes years. Andrea
And that's maybe that's the, was that eat, pray, love years? Julie
Yes. Exactly. Andrea
Amazing. Julie, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time. Julie
You're welcome. It was a pleasure to be here and chat with you. Andrea
Yeah. And then, maybe just quickly, which we'll add in our show notes as well anyway, but maybe if you would like to just kinda state your, your name and your, legal practice, and then we'll also add it into the show notes. Notes. Julie
Sure. Yeah. So Julie Tayas and our firm is Tayas Family Law. We're in Toronto. And we, you know, we well, one thing you should know also is we offer a twenty minute free initial call, and that's just sort of to answer some initial questions. Usually, people have one or two questions, right, without having, you know, a full consultation where we're, you know, running numbers and all of that. It's just a call just to see if it would be a good fit and to answer some pressing questions that will help people get to a stage of deciding often. Andrea
Amazing. Julie, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time. Julie
You're welcome. Thanks. It's been fun. Andrea
Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for tuning in to the fuck you fifties. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to follow and rate the podcast. And we'd love to connect with you on Instagram, so be sure to follow us at the fuck you fifties. The fuck you fifties is hosted by Andrea Clare and edited and produced by Bespoke Productions Hub. See you next time. 
